Cegedim - bringt die Umstrukturierung den erhofften Erfolg? - Die letzten 30 Beiträge

[Marciavelli2000]

Das Ebitda-Multiple liegt bei ca 3,5. Das der Wettbewerber bei 6-7. Und das liegt an den erwähnten hohen Investitionen. 2025 laufen Kredite aus, da wird man sich in 2024 besser präsentieren. Sehen wir dann im September.

[Straßenkoeter]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.535.875 von Chaecka am 28.03.24 19:09:49

Chaecka du hast natürlich jede Menge Rückenwind. Dennoch fabuliere ich nicht. Wie soll ich denn es anders ausdrücken? Ein EPS von 1,50€ ist 2024 im Bereich des Möglichen. Klar kann es auch anders kommen. Jeder weiß, dass wir bei Cegedim immer und immer wieder eines besseren belehrt wurden. Deshalb ist es für dich auch so einfach, hier den Schlauberger zu spielen. Ich sehe bei Cegedim das Problem darin, dass sie einfach zu viele neue Baustellen parallel aufmachen, die hohe Anfangsverluste bescheren oder gar wieder eingestampft werden müssen. Die guten starken Bereiche werden dann von diesem „ Forschungsdrsng“ leider aufgefressen. So ist dann das Endergebnis aller Sparten oft ernüchternd. Das bestreitet auch niemand. Dennoch steigt das CRV deutlich, da wir neue Alltimelows gesehen haben. Einige der Baustellen mit Anfangsverlusten drehen sicher in die Profitabilität. Andere müssen wieder eingestampft werden. Das Potential wird immer größer, ohne dass zwingend die PS auf die Straße kommen. Wie eine Sandburg, wo man immer wieder die Spitze abträgt und sie verbreitert. Das mögliche Höhe wird dann immer größer, aber die tatsächliche Höhe ist eben bescheiden.

Bei einer Ecotel hatten wir eine ähnliche Situation. Immer wieder eine neue Ernüchterung, entsprechend tief war der Kurs nach vielen Jahren. Und dann hat es gefunzt.

Wenn ich sage, das Potential ist da, dann kann man das eben nicht in Frage stellen. Ob und wann sie es abrufen, hingegen schon.

[Chaecka]

Es ist sicherlich ein amüsanter Zeitvertreib, zu diesem Unternehmen eigene Planbilanzen aufzustellen, Erfolgskennzahlen vorherzusagen oder vergangene Ergebniseffekte auszublenden und darüber zu fabulieren, wie erfolgreich das Unternehmen sein könnte, wenn doch einfach alles besser liefe.

Einige Spezialisten machen das seit 8 Jahren mit der immer noch gleich hohen Motivation. Und natürlich soll man nicht gleich aufgeben, nur weil es mal nicht so gut läuft.
Der Kurs hingegen kennt nur eine Richtung: Bergab.

Warum ist das so?
1. Mehrheitsgesellschafter Labrune, der nicht die Ziele der Streubesitzaktionäre verfolgt
2. Unfähiges Management, dass sich nicht auf die ertragstarken Produkte konzentrieren kann und Anfängerfehler begeht, wie zum Beispiel die Erstellung von fehlerhaften Steuerbilanzen.
3.Produkte in limitierten Märkten, viel zu stark an Frankreich ausgerichtet

Dadurch ist das Wachstum niedrig, die Ergebnisse dürftig und alle paar Quartale gibt es neue böse Überraschungen.

Finger weg von dieser Aktie!

[Straßenkoeter]

Ein EPS von 1,50€ für 2024 liegt im Bereich des Möglichen. Denke, dass heute viel frustrierte schwache Hände raus sind.

[Straßenkoeter]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.534.501 von cktest am 28.03.24 16:10:37

Das stimmt doch so nicht, man hatte eine Sonderabschreibung gemacht, da dieser Bereich aufgegeben wurde.

[cktest]

Meiner Ansicht nach ist das EBIT nicht besonders aussagekräftig. Das kann die Firma über die Abschreibungen fast beliebig manipulieren (muss natürlich wirtschaftsprüfer-konform sein). Wenn man also will, dass das EBIT wächst, geht das ziemlich einfach. Wenn mehr Abschreibungen gefordert werden, dann macht man halt eine Einmal-Abschreibung, so wie 2023 auch.
Ich habe von Bilanzen keine Ahnung, aber man hat 2023 mit weniger Cash beendet als begonnen. Das sah 2022 noch wesentlich attraktiver aus.

[Gustl24]

Was passiert wohl wenn die Märkte ab Mai 24 mal um 10% korrigieren könnten?
Reicht die Rutsche schon oder wird es einstellig…? Wie soll kurzfristig binnen der nächsten 3-6 Monate hier Vertrauen aufgebaut werden?
Fragen über Fragen.

[halbgott]

!

Dieser Beitrag wurde von CloudMOD moderiert. Grund: Korrespondierendes Posting wurde entfernt

[Avat-vila]

!

Dieser Beitrag wurde von SelfMODus moderiert. Grund: Schreiben Sie bitte Diskussionsbeiträge zum Thema des Threads, bleiben Sie bitte sachlich und achten auf ihre Inhalte und Wortwahl.

[lazy_invest]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.532.011 von Rhinestock am 28.03.24 11:27:55

Ja du musst natürlich schon weiterrechnen:
40 Mio. EBIT
- 12 Zinsen
= 28 EBT
-25% Steuern
= 21 E
/13,610429 Mio. Aktien
= 1.54 EPS

[Rhinestock]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.530.499 von lazy_invest am 28.03.24 08:48:29

Zitat von lazy_invest: Danke! 40 Mio. EBIT bedeuten ungefähr ein EPS von 1,5 EUR für 2024 - d'accord?

EBIT ist doch lediglich eine weitere Zwischenzahl bevor weitere reale Belastungen noch abgezogen werden müssen. Ist zwar nicht so eine belanglose MickyMaus Zahl wie das hochgradig beschönigende EBITDA ( = BS Earning => https://www.forbes.com/sites/brentbeshore/2014/11/13/ebitda-… , https://www.newtraderu.com/2023/06/28/charlie-munger-every-t… ), aber für den Gewinn pro Aktie bzw. EPS nimmt man eine andere (logischerweise) dann geringere Zahl, wo die Dinge insgesamt abgezogen sind. Also nicht künstlich sich Dinge beim EPS oder KGV schönrechnen durch Verwendung falscher (zu hoher) Kennzahlen wie z.B. EBIT, sondern definitionsgemäß gilt folgendes =>

https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/finanzen/geschaeftsberi… "...Um zum Jahresüberschuss, also dem Nettogewinn zu kommen, wird das Ebit zunächst um das Finanzergebnis bereinigt. Zum Finanzergebnis gehört vor allem der Saldo aus Zinserträgen und Zinskosten. Letzte Korrekturgröße sind die Steuern. Sofern vorhanden, werden noch die Anteile von anderen Gesellschaftern abgezogen. Der ausgewiesene Jahresüberschuss kann dann durch die Anzahl der Aktien geteilt werden und ergibt das Ergebnis je Aktie (auch EPS, Earnings per Share, abgekürzt). Dieses Ergebnis je Aktie ist vor allem für Finanzanalysten eine wichtige Größe, denn sie wird als Berechnungsbasis für das KGV herangezogen.

[Marciavelli2000]

Ah, ganz am Ende steht es.

[halbgott]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.530.394 von Avat-vila am 28.03.24 08:36:41

Lang & Schwarz

Zitat von Avat-vila: die warten halt die Öffnung der Heimatbörse ab und wollen kein Risiko eingehen

Der Handel bei Lang & Schwarz ist ausgesetzt. Pariser Heimatbörse über 20% Minus

Jeder, der hier gestern nachbörslich sinnlos übereilt nachgekauft hat, ist mit dieser nachgekauften Position zweistellig im Minus.

[Marciavelli2000]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.530.499 von lazy_invest am 28.03.24 08:48:29

D'accord. Stehen die 40 Mio im Protokoll? Hab gerade keine Zeit zum Lesen.

[syrtofu]

Der Markt scheint die Perspektive nicht mehr zu kaufen

wer weiß schon, ob die Verdopplung der Umsätze bei Sante in 5 Jahren in irgendeiner Form realistisch sind.
Die größte Sorge ist bei mir aber, dass Cegedim bis nächstes Jahr operativ noch immer nicht ausreichend gut dasteht, um eine solide Refinanzierung der Kredite (~150 Mio im Herbst 2025) hinzubekommen - oder ist das so gewollt?
Vielleicht will FCB eine große Kapitalerhöhung oder Ähnliches?

[basta1887]

Key points

Revenue grew 10.9% to EUR 616 million.
EBITDA grew 13.1% to EUR 108.8 million.
Recurring operating income grew 23.4% to EUR 31.7 million.
Net profit was a loss of EUR 7.9 million.
Operating free cash flow grew 13.2% to EUR 97.9 million.
Net debt grew 5.6% to EUR 145 million.
The company made a major acquisition of Phealing, a tool for advanced control of drug dispensing.
Payroll costs grew 9.3%, slower than sales growth.
Headcount increased by 509 people, with 238 for the Allianz contract.
R&D investment grew slower than previous years.
The company expects revenue growth of 5% to 8% in 2024 and an increase in recurring operating income.
The company is facing CSR challenges and is working on its carbon footprint.

[lazy_invest]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.530.004 von hugohebel am 28.03.24 07:29:43

Danke! 40 Mio. EBIT bedeuten ungefähr ein EPS von 1,5 EUR für 2024 - d'accord?

[Avat-vila]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.530.358 von lazy_invest am 28.03.24 08:32:19

die warten halt die Öffnung der Heimatbörse ab und wollen kein Risiko eingehen

[lazy_invest]

Also LuS weiss auch gerade nicht so genau:
Geld
12,2600 €
Stück: 77Brief
15,5000 €
Stück: 77

[hugohebel]

Transkript

Cegedim SA, 2023 Earnings Call, Mar 27, 2024
27.3.24

Damien Buffet

Thank you, everyone, for attending this meeting. I hope everyone can see well my screen. Here, do you confirm that it's okay. Okay. So we are very pleased to announce the full year 2023 earnings from Cegedim tonight. So the big picture, as you know, the revenue for the full year were EUR 616 million, growing EUR 60.8 million compared to 2022, a growth of 10.9% that we already announced in January.

EBITDA for the full year has been EUR 108.8 million, growing EUR 12.6 million compared to 2022, a growth of 13.1%. The recurring operating income is EUR 31.7 million, growing EUR 6 million, which is 23% growth. Nonrecurring operating items were a loss of EUR 11.7 million in 2023, compared to a gain of EUR 0.8 million last year. We'll go into more details later on, but it's mainly due to our withdrawal from the U.K. market for doctors in -- sorry, obviously, there's a problem with the presentation not going down. Sorry. Sorry for this inconvenience.

Okay. Hope this gets better. Sorry. So the nonrecurring items were a loss of EUR 11.7 million compared to a gain of EUR 0.8 million last year. Net profit settled at a loss -- that's actually a net loss of EUR 7.9 million. We'll see later on what happened. And operating free cash flow is growing EUR 11.4 million to EUR 97.9 million, a growth of 13.2%. And the net debt is around EUR 145 million, growing just 5.6% this year.

On the -- during this year, the -- on the acquisition we made was a major stake holding in Phealing that we already talked about in November, an autonomous tool for advanced control of drug dispensing. It saves time for the pharmacy teams. We can discuss it later, but I think you already saw that.

So let's dive into the P&L for this year that you already had a glance at, at the beginning. So as you see, as you know, the growth was 10.9% last year, almost 61% growth out of which there have been the [ SEDIA ] scheme effect, [indiscernible] effect, which was a big part of it was a chunk of it. We can see that the external expenses grew faster than the revenue. It's because mainly of the Allianz contract, for which we had external contractors question in this external expenses as well as buildings for the new employees coming up from Allianz. And also as a component of it is the cost of software services, which went a bit higher this year, external costs.

We are -- the employees costs grew 9.3% this year, which is slower than our full sales, our full activity this year. So we are quite happy with that. Even more because it could have been even better, because as we are withdrawing from the U.K. actually from the England, Wales and Northern Ireland, we are not categorizing wages R&D. So we are quite happy with this trend.

So the EBITDA is EUR 108.8 million, growing from EUR 96.2 million. So it's a margin of EBITDA of 17.7%. The recurring operating income is EUR 31.7 million, just before that, depreciation and amortization grew slower than the sales even though it's 6.7% growth in D&A, so resulting in a recurring operating income of 31.7% (sic) [ EUR 31.7 million ] and growth of EUR 6 million which is 23.4% growth and its recurring operating income margin of 5.1% this year compared to 4.6%, so in growth.

The nonrecurring operating income and expenses. So as I said, it's an expense of 11.7% (sic) [ EUR 11.7 million ] compared to a gain of EUR 0.8 million last year. Almost EUR 10 million out of this is due to the impairment in the U.K. because of the withdrawal from -- in practice, in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. So there were some R&D expenses that were already in account -- accounted and that now we need to impair especially there. And last year, we had a slight gain because we had -- we sold, as you remember, a stake in gateway, it was a gain of EUR 16 million.

So the operating income this year is EUR 20 million compared to EUR 26.5 million last year. Financial results went slightly higher. It's mainly because we have some variable cost -- variable interest cost in the debt. And the total tax, I think you read the release, the French release. So I'm going to tell you exactly what happened. So it went from minus EUR 4.6 million to EUR 14.8 million. It's actually because Cegedim still has a significant amount of new tax losses, we therefore calculate the tax gain that is possible and show it as a deferred tax asset on the consolidated balance sheet. We have EUR 7.7 million in deferred tax asset at the end of 2023, and we had EUR 20 million at the end 2022. It's actually because the downwards [indiscernible] estimate of the [indiscernible] gains we still hope to make new to recent tax look case -- tax case look, sorry.

So this is noncash for EUR 12.3 million in this total tax. So you have -- it's a bit complex to explain. So you have a lot of explanation in the press release and then also available later on by email to give you some details around this. All in all, the consolidated net profit is a loss of EUR 7.9 million, compared to a gain of EUR 12.1 million last year.

So in this slide, we discussed the payroll costs. As I mentioned earlier, it went up 9.3%, so slower than the sales of the company last year. And the head count went up 509 people, but it's very interesting to note that out of these 509 people, 238 people are for the Allianz contract. So it's almost 50% of these recruitments. And in this 238, almost 190 people are in France, so are insure. So it means that out of the Allianz contract, we recruited more offshore than inshore.

Regarding the R&D investment, it's worth noting that the capitalized R&D went up 2.9% last year, a bit slower than the previous years, because we have less R&D capitalized, especially in the U.K. And the D&A went up last year from EUR 70.5 million to EUR 77.2 million. You can see in the other costs going from EUR 16.8 million to EUR 19.5 million, a rise in the price of IT equipments, everything resulting from the impact on recurring operating income of capitalized R&D and D&A of R&D usually is a gain and last year, is an impact -- a negative impact on the recurring operating income of EUR 1.9 million. This may explain why -- this explains actually why we are a bit lower than what we expected on the recurring operating income in that we have this impact, which is negative this year.

Regarding free cash flow. So you can see that the acquisition of intangible assets was a bit lower this year. It's because we bought less software licenses than last year. Also we capitalized less R&D and the acquisition of tangible assets went from EUR 17.6 million to EUR 22 million. This is due to investments in IT hardware and also our branch, our division, [ Cegedim ] Media are investing in some products to support its growth, especially screen pharmacies.

The next slide is on financing. Not much to say compared to last year. RCF is going maturity in 2024 in October this year. So we are working on this. Regarding the debt covenant, we are quite comfortable with the leverage and the interest cover of the covenants. We are still quite low, compared to what is expected on [ leverage ] and quite superior to the interest cover which is due.

On the balance sheet, we -- so what you can see here on the balance sheet is like the shareholder equity went down because of the net loss this year. Not much to say about it that we haven't discussed yet, this is for your information.

Now I suggest that we go more into details on the various divisions that are present at Cegedim. So the first division is the Software & Services division. The first one that we introduced. So it's 53% of the sales. In 2023, actually a little bug over there, it was EUR 326.6 million in revenues, EUR 4.2 million in recurring operating income. So compared to last year, which was a loss operating income, which was minus EUR 4.9 million. We go to a profit of EUR 4.2 million in recurring operating income this year, supported by the turnaround at Cegedim Santé that went to a higher sales and also a good management of payroll this year. We had to invest a lot in payroll last year, and now we have a good cost and the market is going well. So we are happy with that.

On the subdivision international activities, also, last year, it was a loss at the recurring operating income of EUR 11.4 million. Now it's a loss of EUR 7.6 million, growing about almost EUR 4 million, getting better by almost EUR 4 million. We are quite happy with the division. It's especially due to the pharmacists in the U.K., which have done a very good year this year, very good exercise. And we are starting to harvest the fruits of the restructuration the last of 2022. So now we are going -- we have built that also a small activity called [indiscernible] very good year last year. All in all, the division grew up by 8.2% in sales and went from a loss of 4.9% (sic) [ EUR 4.9 million ] to a gain of 4.2% (sic) [ EUR 4.2 million ] in recurring operating income in 2023, showing a good turnaround that we hope -- we think it's sustainable.

Second division, the division that we know about is the Flow division. So as you know from January, the growth was 5.9%. And they have the e-business and the third-party [ payers ] subdivision over there. We had the recurring operating income going down EUR 1 million this year compared to 2022. So it's 12.1% (sic) [ EUR 12.1 million ], compared to 13.1% (sic) [ EUR 13.1 million ]. This is due to -- e-business, it's doing well. But there was a postponement of the regulation in France regarding the materialization. So it means that some clients have to postpone or were eager to postpone also their buying of the solutions.

And for the third-party payments, it's -- there's a basis comparison with the fact that Allianz. Part of the contract of Allianz is going down to the BPO division that we'll see later on. And it's a division with some fixed costs. So it means that it was a bit tougher on the recurring operating income this year for this division, which is 15.6% of the total group sales. And so with -- so as I mentioned, it's EUR 12.1 million in recurring operating income this year.

Next is the Data & Marketing division, which amounts for almost 19% of the group revenue. With 2 divisions, so there is the data division and the marketing division, the whole division went up 7.5% this year with data growing 5.1% and marketing growing 10.7%. Regarding the recurring operating income, it was EUR 17.9 million last year. It's EUR 15.9 million this year. So it's going down 11.3%. This is mainly due to some investments for the start-up of the international data activity, which is -- and also we had [indiscernible], which is that you may have heard on the SNDS data that we have had less production this year, and then we hope to have more production last year. So that was the Data & Marketing division.

Last but not least, the BPO division. So as we mentioned in January, it's a growth of almost 35% in sales this year, going from EUR 53 million to EUR 71.5 million, especially in the insurance, because of the start-up of the contract with Allianz that started during the year. So went a growth of 55% this year and the HR BPO also had a good growth of 3.4% this year. And we are very happy with the recurring operating income that went from EUR 3 million to EUR 4 million this year, so it's plus EUR 1 million. Especially the HR activity were very positive this year because of the, I would say, our knowledge of the market, the automation also that benefits a lot. And in some way, one could say that we are working better and better. Also on the BPO insurance some other contracts than Allianz, we were quite happy with what we loved this year -- with what happened this year. Sorry.

So that was a dive into the various division of the company regarding the revenues and recurring operating income. I think it's worth getting a look at the outlook we can have for the year, especially that you know that the revenue. We anticipate a growth range between 5% and 8%, and we also anticipate an increase in the recurring operating income for 2024. We hope it will be in the same path regarding the recurring operating income as it has been this year in relative terms. We are happy to -- sorry, it's what we would like to. And if things are getting well maybe having a recurring operating income such as the one in 2021.

And the last word, maybe because it's getting more and more important also for you. It's the CSR challenges that Cegedim is facing. We have put a few challenges that we have and working also on our carbon footprint and trajectory for the future, which is important for us. And here is a slide of how CSR is embedded in Cegedim business from down to up and top down in the 2 ways. There are a few external ratings. But if you are interested in this, yes, I think you can also have this information.

And now the last slide is about the financial calendar. So I was happy to present this. Maybe we can go to a Q&A session so that we can dive into more details on some issues that you may have. Please to ask your question, can you raise the hand so that I can give you the speech, the floor and to answer your question.

Damien Buffet

Okay. Eric, you can ask your question, please.

Unknown Analyst

Can you hear me?

Damien Buffet

Yes, very well.

Unknown Analyst

Okay. I guess my first question is about depreciation of the goodwill in Great Britain. It means that you are going to go out of the business for mid-teens in Great Britain?

Damien Buffet

So regarding the doctors in Great Britain, it's actually -- we had the renegotiation frame now. And we had some price conditions, but were not met. So we will withdraw from -- we will focus on Scotland, which is very important to know [ to not ]. And we'll progressively withdraw from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. It will take us 3 years to go out of this. We do not unplug from one day to another. We need to accompany the doctors that use our solutions, and it will be on the 3 years' time frame.

Unknown Analyst

And the doctors are -- on the international business, doctors are losing more than the loss you mentioned, because you said that the pharmacists are going well in Great Britain.

Damien Buffet

Yes. Yes, it was especially so in the U.K., not only do we address the doctors, but we also address the pharmacists. And they are 2 different businesses, as you know. And so the pharmacist that suffered a few years before because of the -- especially on the fact that goods went out of the market. And now we had some restructuring and now it's bearing fruit. On the doctors, it's another scheme. It's another market. And we -- so yes, we were -- it will be beneficial to us to get out of this England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Unknown Analyst

The plan -- we can assume that it's -- the loss of the doctors is still around EUR 10 million?

Damien Buffet

Yes, you wanted to speak?

Unknown Executive

Can you hear me?

Damien Buffet

Yes.

Unknown Executive

Yes, okay. The plan is to break even in 3 years in the business of software for doctors in Great Britain. So coming from roughly EUR 10 million loss to 0 in 3 years.

Unknown Analyst

Okay. And my second question is about Data & Marketing. We have a decrease in the operating profit. You said that was due to start in international data. Can you give us an idea of the amount it occurs?

Unknown Executive

So the main loss comes from the start-up [indiscernible]. So [indiscernible] is working on the data coming from the national security French system and making studies for hospitals and pharmaceutical companies. And this is really a start-up and the decrease in the profits from last year to the year of '23 comes mainly from [indiscernible]. The losses of the international business is roughly less than EUR 1 million. And this is in fact in the investment due to the fact that we are acquiring data from other software providers than Cegedim providers, specifically in Germany, and in Italy. So this is a fixed cost that we have to suffer. And by signing contracts and having more and more revenue, we plan to be breakeven in 2025.

Unknown Analyst

And the last part is about Visiodent. You bought Visiodent during the beginning of the year, if I remember well. And it's -- you go to Visiodent from Cegedim Santé, I think. And the amount of the transaction is...

Unknown Executive

Is secret. The seller don't want us to show it, nevertheless...

Unknown Analyst

We will see it.

Unknown Executive

You will see it in the next presentation, but we have accepted not to disclose this price for the time being. So this is a EUR 10 million revenue company. EBITDA is positive, not far from EUR 2 million. And this is a very positive acquisition for us because it brings to us the dentist software business that we never had, and we needed to have this brick specifically for the [indiscernible] Santé, I don't know the -- Damien, do you know how can we....

Damien Buffet

Health services centers, I would say, it's a center where you can have a doctor, dentist and various professional that develops well in France, especially.

Unknown Executive

And Visiodent has 500 [indiscernible] Santé clients, we have roughly the same amount of [indiscernible] Santé and this is 1,000 on a market of 2,500. And we know that this market is -- will double in the next 3 years. So having this new brick, this new software makes our position on the market much more efficient.

Unknown Analyst

Okay. And about profit level for 2024, you think that it could be -- we can reach -- and you said that it...

Unknown Executive

Yes, EUR 40 million.

Unknown Analyst

EUR 40 million?

Unknown Executive

Yes. Because the first division, which is the division where we have the biggest losses, all those losses are more or less becoming positive, because we are already working out on that. And the decision we took at the end of last year to go out from the Northern Wales -- Northern Ireland, Wales and England market for software for doctors. The reason of all that is that all the computation we could make on the contract, we could have signed with the different NHS were loss-making. Those contracts with the NHS are very long-term contracts. So once we have signed a contract, we cannot go out easily. So that's the reason why we have announced to them that we didn't want to go on.

Damien Buffet

Thank youm, Eric, for your question. There are other questions.

Unknown Executive

So there is a question about Cegedim SRH, which is the payroll business. This is a double-digit growth still.

Damien Buffet

Also, there's a question about how much Phealing contributed to the growth at the Software & Services division?

Unknown Executive

It's 0. Well, it's a very small amount. This is a startup, too.

Damien Buffet

And regarding the headcount, which we are trying to add people to the extent as in the past, as you can see this year, most of -- half of it was due to the Allianz contract. If you take this out, it's a slowdown in this.

Unknown Executive

Yes. And then we will go on hire people, because we are growing. But of course we have to put a part the 283 people coming from Allianz. Those people, they are -- they will remain equal, established per calendar year.

Damien Buffet

Yes, stable.

Unknown Executive

We have -- maybe I can make a comment on the growth -- on the revenue growth. Last year, the revenue coming from Ségur. Ségur is subsidies coming from the health [indiscernible] to push software providers to develop some specific functions for that software. Last year, it was EUR 7 million, split between the doctor's software in France and the pharmacist software in France. This will not be renewed in 2024. So somehow, we are starting with minus EUR 7 million. We are also starting with a decrease in terms of revenue on the doctor software in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. But then we have an addition of 1 quarter on the big Allianz contract, which is roughly EUR 6 million.

So if we take those 3 events, we start the year with a decrease. And that's the reason why our expectation is that we are going to have a growth between 5% and 8%, 6% and 8%. But meanwhile, since we are working hard on reducing the losses and transforming the loss-making business into profit-making business. We will have -- we are confident in the fact that we are going to have a growth in terms of the EBIT which will allow us to be confident in the fact that we will reach our target of roughly EUR 40 million in 2024.

For 2025, there is a big difference in the sense that Ségur is coming back. There is a second vague for doctors and there is the first vague for [indiscernible] in anesthetist and the nurses. And spread on '25 and the beginning of '27 -- '26, sorry, we expect an increase of revenue of roughly EUR 20 million, 2-0. So it gives an idea of what is the midterm evolution for Cegedim Group.

Damien Buffet

Thank you, very much, Pierre, for that. [indiscernible] you rose the hand. Yes, the floor is yours.

Unknown Analyst

Can you hear me?

Damien Buffet

Yes, very well.

Unknown Analyst

So in the past, you've mostly used your clouds, yourself, and you've seen interest from other parties. Do you expect that the cloud will be opened to more parties? And will you -- and do you expect more revenue from your cloud business?

Unknown Executive

Yes. Yes. But this is a marginal business. It's a few -- I think last year, we made roughly EUR 7 million in the pure cloud for direct to third-parties clients. So this will grow, because we are -- it's a way for us to have a benchmark in terms of cost and efficiency. So this will grow, but this is not a very big figure. You see a very big revenue.

Unknown Analyst

All right. And considering your CBS units, which you've created, I think, in 2023, what is your plan to drive your revenue forward in this division?

Unknown Executive

Yes. So CBS is the merge of the payroll business and the materialization -- the e-business. Those 2 business are double-digit growth. The specificity of those 2 business is that they are not totally dedicated to health care clients. Their main clients are non-health care and that's part of the reason why we have organized this new business unit. But this is really a double digit. And this is a business, which will have a growth in terms of EBIT due to the fact that the regulamentation about the materialization of invoices will come in 2 years in France. I think there is now the regulamentation, which is in place in Germany where we have a subsidiary, and we have a fast growth in the U.K. in this area. So this is one of the best growth we will have in the future in Cegedim Group.

Unknown Analyst

Since this business is not your, let's say, original customers. And to the health care sector. Would you consider, let's say, an IPO or spin-off of this division?

Unknown Executive

No. Today, we are not. Today, we are not. This division is strongly using the cloud Cegedim organization. So all businesses are using the cloud organization, but we do not plan to sell or to make an IPO on this part. This is really an internal reorganization, but it has not been made with the target of putting this business on the market today.

Unknown Analyst

Today. All right. But you would be open for external capital in Cegedim Santé and maybe the pharmacy division also?

Unknown Executive

So Cegedim Santé, we made an increase of capital in 2022. It was EUR 65 million or 18% of the company, Cegedim Santé. So this is due to the fact that at end of 2021, we have decided to invest a lot in this business. If you look at my screen, you will see Maiia. Cegedim Santé is the editor of Maiia. Maiia is the competitor of Doctolib. So we have decided to invest a lot. We have recruited a lot of people. We have made a lot of R&D. We knew that it would have a negative impact on the group results in 2022 and 2023. And that's the reason why we have looked for external cash, external capital.

Our plan for this business is to double the revenue. Today, we are making EUR 75 million. We feel that in 5 years, we will be at EUR 150 million, and it will be a high profitable business. But you see that the reason why we have looked for external funds is really because we had decided to invest a lot, and we felt that Cegedim was not able to auto finance this development. As long as in all the businesses, we feel that they are self sufficient to finance their development. We are not looking for external funds.

Unknown Analyst

So you are also not looking for external funds in your data business, like there is quite a lot of interest in, let's say, artificial intelligence and one could [indiscernible] that this would be a great benefactor, right? You've got tremendous amounts of data, which could be utilized here.

Unknown Executive

Yes. We are really investing there. But this is profit-making, and we are using the profits to develop those intelligence, artificial software. We are working a lot on having some modules to help doctors to make diagnosis, find some way to detect some very rare illness. We are working a lot with the [indiscernible] Gustave Roussy here in Paris, which is an institution very top for cancer. So there is real a lot of potential due to the using of those techniques to analyze data coming from doctors and pharmacists. We know that, and we invest in that. Although today, we cannot say that we are making a lot of revenue on this. We know that it will come in the future.

Unknown Analyst

And are you open to partnerships and collaboration with, let's say, external developers, other companies?

Unknown Executive

Well, the main cooperation we have is that we buy data to other software providers. And that's it. We know that for some clients, we are just selling raw data, you see. And that those clients are using specific companies we are making the studies on the data we have transferred to them. We know that. This is not a business. We are not -- we have no specific partner on this, but we know that a lot of companies are working on the data we are providing.

Unknown Analyst

And maybe one last question for me. When you talk about other players using the data, what is the main utility they use the data for? Is it for market intelligence?

Unknown Executive

Mainly in pharmaceutical companies. Our data are mainly used for them to have a view of their market. Some of the company have their own analysts team and some of the companies of our clients are using external companies to analyze the data.

Unknown Analyst

And we are talking about medicine being sold? Or is it more on the [ doctor ]?

Unknown Executive

No. We are talking of medicine, but we're also talking about all the products that are sold in a pharmacy. So it can be cosmetics.

Damien Buffet

Wide range of products that you have in the pharmacy, you can also have hardware and you have cosmetics [indiscernible] you can have all...

Unknown Executive

Not only medicine. Yes.

Damien Buffet

Thank you, [indiscernible]. We had a question regarding the other nonrecurring operating expenses in -- at the U.K. doctor business for 2024. The question is whether we will have the same amount next year in other nonrecurring expenses? I think we had a big chunk of the impairment this year will still be, as I mentioned, we spare for the next 3 years over there. So we [indiscernible].

Unknown Executive

Yes. But we won't have any -- well, unless there are new problems coming. But today, we do not plan to have any impairment. We have computed the impairment in 2023 in order not to have to make more impairments in the future. We will go on amortizing the capitalized R&D made on this department, but this will be amortization. This won't be impairment. And as I said before, the target is to be at 0 EBIT on this business software for doctors in the U.K. at the end of next third year.

Damien Buffet

Okay. Do we have some more -- do we have some more questions?

Unknown Executive

There is a question about ChatGPT.

Damien Buffet

ChatGPT and chatbots, yes.

Unknown Executive

Yes. So I spoke about the intelligence -- artificial intelligence for cancer, doctors and so on. But we are also developing internal tools to improve the efficiency of our BPO teams. The BPO business is that we are managing a lot of information coming from the clients of our clients. In insurance, for instance, we are managing the dossier of 25 million French people. And those people, they always have questions. So they send e-mail, they use chatbot. And so we are developing tools so that we can analyze the questions. And then we can put the right person in front of the question to give the good answer. So it's another way to use those techniques.

Damien Buffet

Okay. I think we had one last question from [indiscernible]. You have the floor, and I think you just have to turn on your mic, [indiscernible]. Or maybe [indiscernible].

Unknown Executive

It's the answer I've just given.

Damien Buffet

Okay. Great. To my knowledge here, we have no more questions written or ask with your raise hand. If there's one last one? Okay. If not, we will now thank you for attending this presentation. I hope you have found the whole information you wanted to hear about Cegedim, and we will see you for the first quarter sales in April in a month from now.

Thanks a lot for attending this presentation. Have a good evening. And see you next. Thanks a lot, Pierre for attending also answering the question from our fellow investors.

Unknown Executive

Thank you very much.

Damien Buffet

Thank you.

Unknown Executive

Bye-bye.

[basta1887]

Also ich bin mit seiner Performance des Wikifolios sehr zufrieden. >15% pro Jahr spricht für sich.
bcgk, man sollte besser über die Sache sprechen und nicht über Personen. Viele Grüße!

[ooy]

Lesezeichen...

[bcgk]

Für katjuscha tut es mir definitiv leid. Netter Kerl mit viel Kompetenz, aber er bekommt es gar nicht mehr auf die Straße. Erst der e-Commerce Albtraum, dann Hello Fresh und nun Cegedim.

Ich bin bei werthaltig. Zu stur, zu unflexibel. Er folgt zu sehr seinen Berechnungsmodellen und zu wenig realen Marktsignalen.

Aber es ist nie zu spät für Verhaltensanpassungen.

[halbgott]

Horrorzahlen

die Zahlen sind ein einziger Alptraum. Cegedim rutscht klar in die roten Zahlen. Wer hier glaubt, daß nachbörslich deutliche Minus wäre eine Übertreibung, irrt ganz gewaltig. Es wird ziemlich sicher weiter runtergehen. Bei der derzeitigen Misere der Nebenwerte, werden alle extrem nachhaltig abgestraft, die die Erwartungen verfehlt haben. Es gibt wirklich bessere Aktien, deutlich bessere Aktien sogar, viel viel deutlicher unterbewertet und mit Prognoseerhöhungen. und davon noch nicht mal wenige.

wer hier vollkommen beratungsresistent immer nur nachkauft, vergrößert nur das Elend.

[Marciavelli2000]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.529.245 von lazy_invest am 27.03.24 22:08:30

Richtig. Als Konsequenz könnte man die Investitionen eimfach mal um 30 Mios kürzen.

[lazy_invest]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.529.050 von Marciavelli2000 am 27.03.24 21:32:22

Bringt nur nichts, wenn sich die Investitionen regelmässig als Flop herausstellen und als ausserplanmässige Sonderabschreibungen den Aktionären die Ergebnisse versemmeln.

[Marciavelli2000]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.528.081 von cktest am 27.03.24 19:17:36

Ich seh das Potential eher bei den Investitionen. 12% des Umsatzes geht darein, bei Bechtle sind es 2%, bei Datagroup 8%.

[neuyrmos]

mal schauen was Katjuscha dazu sagt, er plant ja morgen nachzukaufen wenn der Kurs fällt was ja nicht ganz unwahrscheinlich ist

[solea1]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.528.291 von werthaltig am 27.03.24 19:46:03

Kommentar der Woche reloaded ;-)

[werthaltig]

Antwort auf Beitrag Nr.: 75.528.081 von cktest am 27.03.24 19:17:36

Kommentar der Woche! Genau so ist es. Ein hoffnungsloser Laden mit hoffnungslosem Management. Ich kann es nicht verstehen wie man sich das als Anleger antut. Das hat auch nicht mehr wirklich was mit "langfristig" zu tun wie Katjuscha schreibt, das ist falsche Sturheit oder Masochismus am eigenen oder verwalteten Geld. Irgendwann muss man sich den Fehler eingestehen und die Reißleine ziehen. 1000 andere Chancen liegen lassen und bei dieser Stümpertruppe hoffen dass sich irgendwann man was zum positiven hin ändert? echt? Das sind gigantische Opportunitätskosten die hier bei langfristig Investierten auflaufen. Ich bin 2023 irgendwann ausgestiegen, beobachte das Trauerspiel aber noch als "abschreckendes Beispiel" für ein "kadavergehorsames buy-hold"-Beispiel.

Zitat von cktest: Nehmen wir an, Cegedim hätte überhaupt keine Steuern gezahlt. Dann hätten sie statt eines "net loss" von -7.4 Mio. EUR einen "net profit" von +7.4 Mio. EUR und somit ein EPS von +0.50 EUR (letztes Jahr waren es +1.00 EUR). Das reißt mich immer noch nicht vom Hocker. Wenn man die Sonderabschreibung auch noch komplett ausfallen ließe, dann wäre es ein EPS von 1.11 EUR. Das würde den aktuellen Kurs vielleicht rechtfertigen, aber wo ist das Potential?
Aber es geht seit Jahren so, dass man "eigentlich" viel Geld verdient hätte, aber es ist leider was dazwischengekommen.