Da es mir nicht gelingt, in dem Thread zu posten (über WTC-Kollaps wg. Kerosin???) - 500 Beiträge pro Seite

[golden-bear]

werden jetzt im Internet die Luken vor der Wahrheit geschlossen, oder warum komme ich in die von mir geposteten Threads nicht mehr rein und kann dort nichts mehr posten???
Dann halt hier in einem neuen Thread, as long as it´s still possible...


Quelle: http://eionews.addr.com/psyops/news/wtc_unanswered_questions…

WORLD TRADE CENTER ATTACK - UNANSWERED QUESTIONS

By: Lawrence Stephen Maxwell

Four planes that were supposed to go to particular destinations did not go to those destinations. Three of the planes hit buildings. One of them crashed in a field in Pennsylvania.

No ones knows what happened because EIGHT (8) indestructible black boxes (2 on each flight) were destroyed or reportedly damaged beyond possible restoration. Guess that is why they are referred to as indestructible. The crash in Pennsylvania did not even cause an explosion. Even if it had, the boxes are designed to withstand twice the maximum heat that can be generated by a jet fuel fire. Why didn`t they show us the destroyed boxes?

Do you think the guys who actually found them would talk to anyone? Or are they still alive to discuss what THEY saw with their own eyes? Paper passports of two (2) of the alleged hijackers survived just fine and were supposedly found in the burning ruble of the Pentagon crash, and another three blocks from the WTC.......three blocks. I would bet good money to anyone who thinks he could contrive a way to launch a passport a distance of three city blocks.

We have been told that seven cell phone calls were made from the planes. Not ONE of the callers described the hijackers as Arabic, Saudi, Muslin, Iranian or anyone from the Middle East.

Barbara Olson, writer, author, investigative reporter, famous commentator, attorney, and wife of the Solicitor General of the United States (Mr. Olson being George W`s lawyer who argued before the Supreme Court in Bush v. Gore), did not describe the hijackers to him as being from the middle east. She was trained to be observant and mentally record details, yet there has been no report that she described the hijackers at all. Are we to believe she didn`t describe them, or did she describe them and we just aren`t being told? And if we aren`t being told, is it because her description doesn`t match the profile being fed to us?

And are we to believe the Solicitor General forgot to ask her to DESCRIBE the criminals? I guess we are to accept that this is obviously an insignificant "fact" that the most high-powered-lawyer in the United States would understandably forget to ask.

From almost the moment it happened it was dubbed an ATTACK ON AMERICA. I have videotape referring to it in that manner BEFORE George W made his speech in the Florida elementary school and went prancing across the country. It has NEVER been referred to as an Attack on the United States. In everything the federal government does from a legal perspective - writing and executing laws, prosecution -- everything is the based on an entity known as the United States. But on September 11, 2001 and every day since,
the criminal acts were an Attack on America. Why are we suddenly America, not the United States?

The Pentagon is NOT in the District of Columbia -- it is in Virginia. That is a FACT and it would take volumes to explain its significance. I will give you a hint. D.C. is the United States. Virginia and New York are American States. I am doing some research to find out, but I do not believe that the soil under the Pentagon was ever ceded by Virgina to the United States. I know for CERTAIN that the Arlington National Cemetery has NOT been ceded because a federal prosecution for larceny in the Cemetery was dismissed a few decades back by a federal district court because the federal government has no territorial jurisdiction (United States v. Penn, 48 F. 669 (E.D.Va., 1880). The State of Virgina prosecuted the felony. That area was first ceded to the federal government for the seat of government in 1791 along with land on the east side of the Potomac ceded by Maryland for the same purpose.

Collectively the 10-mile-square was to be the seat of government as specified in 1.8.17 of the federal constitution. Thomas Jefferson and the Virginia Legislature took it back (22 square miles) after Jefferson and Washington had a serious rift over civil rights issues in 1792 (making Virginians license carriages and wagons and carry identification on their person). The place where the Pentagon and the Cemetery are situated was the General Robert E. Lee Plantation and Estate. It was sold to the federal government after the Civil War.

Had the planes hit a military installation that had been ceded (federal territory) or anything in DC (78 square miles of federal territory ceded by Maryland under 1.8.17 of the federal constitution in 1791) it would immediately be considered and ACT OF WAR, not terrorism. Pearl Harbor was a military base. Hawaii was federal territory. That ATTACK was an ACT OF WAR. In this instance none of the planes hit anything in federal territory.

The soil was American soil of two of the States which united to form the United States of America and to create the military government known as the United States that would protect America. Hence, Attack on America.

BATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms) agents have been walking around all over the ruble for two weeks. Why?

More defense systems were disabled than can even be listed. And the media are NOT talking about THAT.

When OKC was bombed, all we heard for more than a week was Osama Bin Laden, Osama Bin Laden. Then they pinned it on a guy that they said was driving a Ryder rental truck.

They arrested McVeigh, according to news reports, 2 hours after the bombing, driving south on Interstate 45 toward Dallas..barefoot, no shirt, plates expired, no driver license, speeding, with a loaded .45 caliber automatic on the front seat. Just exactly what you would expect from someone who had just blown up an 8 story building with a fertilizer bomb.

From that moment on, they called OKC a terrorist act. Without McVeigh they had no terrorist. We still, to this day, do not know what McVeigh was supposedly trying to influence the civilian population to do, or how he was supposedly trying to influence government policy....

By definition this was NOT a terrorist act (attached as PDF file). But the media spin is NOT based on FACT or LAW.

See Attachment: PDF of definition of ACT OF TERRORISM from Black`s Law Dictionary, Abridged 6th Edition -- adopted word for word by Congress codified at 18 USC § 3077. (You will need Acrobat Reader to download and read Black`s Law Dictionary`s legal definition of "terrorism." If you cannot download it, email Widowmaker and he will send it to you in email form).

Do you really think that a few 120 pound middle-easterners overtook eight pilots, and their crew members and passengers, using razor-blade boxcutters? Do you really think a commercial pilot would give up his plane under threat from ANYONE with a boxcutter? How many hijackings have you ever heard of where the hijackers brought their own pilot? And four times in one day?

And if you were going to do this deed, wouldn`t you have a driver`s license in your own name, get your pilot`s license in your own name, and leave your calling card everywhere you went, being rude and obnoxious so everyone would notice you?

Explain to me how all of the defense systems were disabled? How did four planes, that were not on their computerized flight paths, fly around for more than an hour and a half without alarms going off all over the place? When their altitudes and positions CEASED TO BE VISIBLE ON RADAR, why weren`t people (air traffic controllers) alarmed?

As close as Boston and Dulles are to D.C., why would disappearing planes NOT be a cause for alarm? Why was it more than an hour AFTER the WTC crashes that fighters were scrambled? Was the Air Force sleeping at 7:45 AM on a Tuesday morning when the planes were supposedly hijacked, and deviated from their designated flight paths?

Are we supposed to believe that when a transponder is turned OFF that no one is alerted that the plane is no longer being tracked by altitude; and that such a thing could occur to four planes almost simultaneously in the same geographical region, dangerously close to the seat of government, and NO ONE was alerting the media, the defense department, or anyone?

Am I supposed to believe that no one even had a clue for an hour and a half from the time the first plane left its flight plan until smoke started coming out of a WTC tower? And when the first plane hit the tower, no one knew that three other planes were missing, and thought it prudent to call the media or government officials and tell them that three other planes were missing and that other locations might not be safe?

I have talked to three pilots who have told me in their own words and understandings that what we are being told happened, could NOT possibly have happened.

What I DO KNOW is that we are not hearing much TRUTH. And 110 story buildings do NOT collapse because a plane hits them. The second plane nearly missed the building, only going through the corner. Most of the fuel burned in an outside explosion. It collasped first, long before the tower that the plane completely entered. The refined Kerosene (a/k/a jet fuel) burned up fairly quickly. The stuff burning from that point on was desks, paper, plastics, carpet, etc. That fuel did not generate 2000-degree heat that would compromise 6 tubular steel columns in the center of the building designed SPECIFICALLY to keep the building from collapsing if hit by a Boeing 707 that, because it was older and less efficient, carried MORE fuel that the 757 and 767 that hit the towers. The structural engineer who designed the WTC Towers explained how the towers were designed to withstand a hit by a commercial jet -- and he did explain this to an international coalition on Terrorism in Frankfurt, Germany on Wednesday before the event.

And 53 minutes after Tower 2 was hit the tower just imploded because it was on fire? Yeah right! I discussed this with a structural engineer who investigated a HOTEL in Los Angeles that he said was 30 stories and it burned from the ground floor up. It burned for nearly a week. The fire totally destroyed everything on all 30 floors. The estimated temperatures
were 2200 degrees because of the natural gas and other fuel that was the catalyst for the fire.

The concrete and infrastructure did not budge. It cost more than a million dollars to TEAR IT DOWN. The 30 floors above the first floor did NOT cave in on the first floor when the support structure go hot. And he reviewed the architecture on the WTC and said the type of steel and the type of construction for the WTC was double the strength of the LA hotel.

Just like in OKC, people reported hearing multiple EXPLOSIONS before the WTC collapsed. I have video of people who were interviewed after the collapses and they said they heard a series of explosions (not floors collapsing) and then the buildings came down. The media dismissed it as exploding main gas lines. Gas mains on the 104th floor? Yeah right!

We know that there would NOT be any safety mechanism in place that would have shut off gas flow throughout the buildings in the case of fire -- 53 minutes after a plane hit the building. Guess it was a big gas valve and it could not be vented to the outside air after it was shut off. If that is true, I have better safety measures in my own house than the WTC had.

And why would they need safety mechanisms in place? It isn`t like anyone has ever tried to blow up those same two towers before.

The strength of the WTC towers was in the 6 Tubular Steel Columns in the CENTER of the buildings, not the steel structure on the outside like most construction. The buildings were literally, according to the builder, designed NOT to pancake in the event of a Boeing 707 crashing into them. But they collapsed. It took 53 minutes for Tower 2 and 88 minutes for Tower 1 -- to simply COLLAPSE. Excerpts of his speech in Germany were posted to the internet five days before the planes hit the towers.

My take? Americans are not very bright. Americans don`t think. They accept what they are told. They don`t TEST what they are told. They are lazy, and naive to the point of being undeserving of liberty. And for that reason they will sacrifice liberty for what they perceive to be security. That is exactly, in fact, the genesis for the federal government.

The States gave up their RIGHTS in exchange for perceived security. And as long as the talking-heads can convince the general public that the federal government can PROTECT THEM, the sheople will patriotically give up every right they have if it makes them feel safe -- while singing GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Copyright October 2001
Lawrence Stephen Maxwell
Permission granted to reproduce and distribute

[golden-bear]

Na, in diesem Thread klappt´s ja noch mit dem Posten!
Hier etwas über die unglaublichen Dreistigkeiten, die sich die US-Behörden bzgl. der Passagierlisten und "Täter"-Namen herausnahmen. Das stinkt alles de´rmaßen zum Himmel!

Quelle: http://www.eionews.addr.com/psyops/news/passenger_list_puzzl…

Gary North`s REALITY CHECK
Number 82 October 12, 2001

THE PERPLEXING PUZZLE OF THE PUBLISHED PASSENGER LISTS

Maybe you like puzzles. I hope so. I don`t like
them. I regard them as a challenge, not a game. I avoid
them because, when I cannot find a solution, my mind won`t
stop working on them. Then I get very frustrated. So, I
avoid magic shows, crossword puzzles, and similar brain-
twisters.

Yet I am also a historian with a Ph.D. Historians are
trained to solve puzzles with insufficient pieces.
Historians never have all of the evidence that they would
like in order to come up with a coherent explanation of
what happened. They always want another piece in the
puzzle before they go into print. (Of course, once they go
into print, they will tend to reject any newly discovered
piece that messes up their version of the completed
puzzle.) At some point, they are supposed to come to a
conclusion. They are supposed to make a judgment about
what happened.

I am presently stuck. So, I am sending out this
report. Maybe there is someone my list who can get me
unstuck.

Years ago, I saw a movie, "My Cousin Vinnie." Vinnie
was studying to be a lawyer. He wasn`t a good classroom
student, but he had a unique ability. He could figure out
how things fit together. Show him a magic trick, and he
could tell you how the magician did it. Tell him a story
with a missing link, and he could identify where the
missing link was, and maybe what it was. He could solve
puzzles.

I am trying to locate Vinnie.

This puzzle is no game. The United States has gone to
war on the basis of one solution to this puzzle. We have
not yet been told what this solution is.

The puzzle begins with the crash of four airliners.
We must work our way backward from this.

To do this, I decided to begin with official
information that was published 16 days after the attack.
To work my way backwards, I first leaped forward.

ALLEGED HIJACKERS

On September 27, the Associated Press released a story
about the hijackers. The version that I read, published in
the ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION, referred to these men as
alleged hijackers. I shall do the same.

I located this article by using www.daypop.com.
Daypop is the most complete archive of recent news stories
on the Web. Daypop allows you to search for stories that
are up to four weeks old.

I searched for "passenger list" and "hijackers."
Daypop produced three pages of links -- not that many.
Almost all of these links were to the same AP story, which
was published by numerous on-line news sources. Here is
the version I used.

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/0927hijack…

The headline reads: "FBI releases updated list of
alleged hijackers." Above the headline is a link that
says, "Click here to see 19 suspected hijackers." I
clicked it. A large box popped up. It took a while for
the photos to appear. There are 19 photos, along with
names. The names appear to be Middle Eastern -- Arabs.
Most of the men look like Arabs, although a few might pass
as Mexicans. Only one of them looked vaguely like a
European.

They are divided into four lists, according to which
flight they are said to have boarded. There were five men
on American Airlines Flight 77, five on AA Flight 11, five
on United Airlines Flight 175, and four on UA Flight 93 --
the flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.

Let`s return to the AP story itself. We read the
following:

As Attorney General John Ashcroft launched a
"national neighborhood watch" with the release of
the photos, FBI Director Robert Mueller
acknowledged that questions remained about
whether an accompanying list contained the true
names of the 19.

"What we are currently doing is determining
whether, when these individuals came to the
United States, these were their real names or
they changed their names for use with false
identification in the United States," Mueller
said.

The FBI director said there was evidence that one
or more of the hijackers had had contacts with
al-Qaida, the network associated with Osama bin
Laden, the exiled Saudi millionaire who is the
Bush administration`s top suspect in the attacks.

This story indicates that, as of September 27, the FBI
was not certain whether these suspects had used their real
names. The remainder of the story listed each of their
names, along with possible aliases. The aliases all look
like Arab names.

I have discovered no additional information released
to the general public regarding these suspects.

I now backtrack to the morning of September 11. The
issue that I am trying to deal with is airline security.
To draw rational conclusions about how the alleged
hijackers accomplished their acts of terrorism, we must
begin with airline security.

The United States has now gone to war because of a
breakdown somewhere in airline security procedures. Yet
nobody in government is blaming the specific airlines.
They are blaming the procedures. This is why I want you
mentally to go through the procedures with me. I have hit
a brick wall. I am asking you to help me knock it down. I
will show you how I went through the procedures mentally.
See if you can figure out which step I missed.

Step One is check-in.

STEP ONE: CHECK-IN

On September 11, airline check-in counters were the
only places in the United States that required travellers
to present a photo ID in order to travel. A photo ID meant
(and still means) a card issued by some branch of civil
government. Years ago, the United States government took
the first step toward a national ID card when it mandated
the requirement that all passengers present a photo ID card
before being allowed to get on a commercial airplane.

This means that the tightest security that the typical
American ever confronts is airport security. This is the
model for all other security systems governing the general
public.

Let`s go through the check-in routine together.
Pretend that it`s September 11, and you are a check-in
agent at either a United Airlines counter or an American
Airlines counter. It is your job to ask the standard
questions. "Did you pack your own luggage? Have you had
it in your possession at all times?" Then you ask for a
photo ID. The name on the ID must match the name on the
ticket. The photo must match the person presenting the
card.

I began with American Airlines, Flight 11. This was
the plane that crashed into the north tower of the World
Trade Center. I began with the list of passengers. This
was not difficult. The passenger lists for all four planes
are posted on CNN`s Website.

Click on the link. This is a long link for the
formatting of my newsletter. If it is broken on your
screen, you will have to paste it into your Web browser`s
address box. This will take two steps.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.v…

The CNN page says that there were 92 people on board.
I suggest that you print out the list. Part of my exercise
was to count the names of the passengers. Besides, you
never know when a Web page will disappear.

Do you have the print-out in front of you? Count the
names. I get 86 names, including the crew. But the CNN
page says 92 people were on board.

None of the 86 names is an Arab name. This is very,
very strange. First, how did the CNN list-compiler know
that there were 92 people on board? Five of them are not
listed. Second, how did anyone get on board who was not on
the list of ticketed passengers?

To get onto the flight legally, each passenger had to
have a ticket with his or her name on it. Each passenger
had to present a photo ID to the check-in agent. The
check-in agent was supposed to look at the picture and the
person, and then make a judgment. Was it the same person?
If the mandated procedure was followed, the check-in agent
decided that the ticket`s name, the photo ID`s name, the
photo, and the ID-holder`s face all matched. If there was
any doubt, the check-in agent was supposed to ask for some
other form of identification. If there was none, the
person was not allowed to board the plane.

We are told by the United States government that five
Arabs somehow got through this initial screening procedure.
How did they do this? This is puzzle number one regarding
Flight 11. Puzzle number two has to do with the incomplete
passenger list.
Airlines keep a list of passengers on board. This is
for insurance purposes, should there be a crash. It is
also for the purpose of notifying relatives after a crash.
It is also for the purpose of in-cabin screening. "Has
everyone paid who is on the plane?" And, finally, is there
a hijacker on board?

On American Airlines Flight 11, there were no Arab
names on the passenger list. So, how does the government
know who the hijackers were?

Why does CNN`s Web page list 92 dead, when there are
only 86 name listed? Who was the non-Arab?

I have seen nothing about government accusations
against American Airlines for substandard check-in security
procedures. In fact, I have seen nothing about the
discrepancy between the published names and the published
numbers regarding how many people were on board.

Let`s go to American Airlines Flight 77. This plane
crashed into the Pentagon.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.v…

We are told that 64 people were on board. I count 56,
including 6 crew members. There is no explanation offered
for the absence of 8 names. There is no Arab name on this
list.

Something is definitely wrong here.

What about United Airlines? Did the company`s
employees follow the same check-in procedure? Presumably,
they did. I checked Flight 175, which crashed into the
south tower.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua175.…

There were 56 people on board, according to CNN`s
summation. I printed out the list. I counted the names.
Once again, they don`t add up. The summation says there
were 2 pilots, 7 flight attendants, and 56 passengers. I
counted the names. The total is 56 -- the number
attributed to the passengers. Nine names are missing.
None of the listed names is Arab.

This leaves United Flight 93, which crashed in
Pennsylvania. It had 45 people on board, according to the
summation.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua93.v…

Again, there is a discrepancy. Only 33 names appear
on the list. A dozen names are missing. Among the missing
names are the four Arabs who allegedly hijacked the plane.

So, the published names in no instance match the total
listed for the number of people on board. CNN really
should offer an explanation for this discrepancy.

In no case does an Arab name appear on a list, let
alone one of the alleged hijackers.

How did CNN fail to count the names accurately? Did
the airlines not provide the full list of each flight`s
names? Perhaps so.

This raises the next question. How did the airlines
know how many people were on each of these flights? The
airlines must have had a list for each flight. What
possible reason could they have had for not releasing the
full lists? Finally, why are there no Arabs listed on any
of these lists, let alone the specific Arabs identified by
the Attorney General and the head of the FBI in an
Associated Press story?

I do not understand how 19 Arabs could have evaded the
check-in procedures. I also do not understand why every
passenger`s name is not on the published lists.

I have seen no other source of the passenger lists.
(Another search word: "manifests.") It has now been over a
month since the attack. Where is a complete list? I don`t
know. Where is a complete list of all four flights that
has the alleged hijackers` names on it? I don`t know.

Finally, where is some enterprising reporter who is
trying to get answers? I don`t know.

What about Step Two?

STEP TWO: ON-BOARD SEATING

There were multiple terrorists in the cabin of each
plane when the plane left the ground. They did not get
there through the ticket-screening system. Or did they?
If they did, then how?

I assume here -- again, maybe I am wrong -- that they
got there through another entrance. Maybe they were part
of the food service team.

These were all cross-country flights. The planes were
loaded with lots of fuel, which is why they were selected:
flying bombs. On cross-country flights, passengers still
are given meals, not just pretzels and soft drinks. The
number of meals is supposed to match the number of people
on board, or at least come close.

Flight attendants have a list of passengers and their
assigned seats. This is to enable them to identify
passengers who have requested special meals, such as kosher
meals. It is also to enable them to identify people who
have not bought a ticket. Flight attendants are supposed
to know who has been assigned to which seat.

It is September 11. Here is the situation: there are
an extra five men on three flights, and four extra men on
Flight 93.

You have already seen the photos of these men. If I
had been a flight attendant, and I saw five extra men who
looked like they did -- young, Arabic, and without tickets
-- I would have asked them to explain why they were on
board. I would not have assumed that they belonged there.
Are we to assume that on four separate flights, none
of the flight attendants noticed that something was wrong?
Are we to believe that they failed to notice that five or
four extra passengers were on board who were not on the
passenger list? Furthermore, these men looked as though
they were of one ethnic group. They all had Arabic
accents, I presume.

Why did the flight attendants ignore all this? There
is no indication from the government that these men took
over all four planes while the planes were still on the
ground. Even if they had, the pilots would not have taken
off if there were hijackers on board. They would have
waited to hear the demands, and the demand to "take off
now" would have been refused by at least one flight crew --
and I believe all four.

We need a theory of the co-ordinated hijacking that
rests on a plausible cause-and-effect sequence that does
not assume the complete failure of both the check-in
procedures and the on-board seating procedures on four
separate flights on two separate airlines. If the
explanation does rely on a theory of check-in procedural
breakdown, where is the evidence?

I have heard no such theory from the government. I
have heard no such theory from the news media. In fact, I
have heard neither the government nor the mainstream media
even mention these perplexing problems. Perhaps you have.
If so, I would like to see the Web link or a reference to
the newspaper or other source where these matters have been
discussed.

I don`t mean this or that discussion forum devoted to
conspiracy theories. I mean the mainstream press. It is
very peculiar that the mainstream media and the government
have not offered a detailed theory of how the hijackers
evaded both the check-in procedures and the pre-takeoff
seating procedures.

Perhaps some airline industry publication has dealt
with this. If so, I would like to see the document.

I would also like to see passenger lists that include
every passenger`s name. I want to see 19 Arab names on
these complete lists.

If these updated lists are ever released, I want to
see that they match the original lists that were not
released immediately. I want to know that any new names
have not been added retroactively. I want evidence -- from
travel agencies` records and credit card records -- that
everyone on each plane`s updated passenger list actually
bought a ticket.

Is this to much to ask? So far, apparently it is.

CONSPIRACY THEORIES

Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen. Well, not all
of them. We have gone to war based on one of them. But I
don`t see how anyone can make an accurate judgment about
who was behind the attacks until he has a plausible
explanation of how the hijackers got onto the planes and
were not removed.

I am not interested in any theory about who did it
until I have a plausible explanation for how he did it.

The key to discovering who planned this attack is
inescapably tied to the procedures used by his agents to do
it.

I don`t see how they did it, yet I know that three
planes crashed into highly visible targets. A fourth plane
had veered off course, and it seems plausible that it was
part of a co-ordinated attack. This has yet to be proven,
but it seems plausible.

We keep hearing about plastic knives and box cutters.
But we hear nothing about how these 19 men took plastic
knives and box cutters onto four planes, and no one noticed
that anything was amiss until the planes were in the air.

So, you tell me. How did 19 Arabs get onto these
planes and then remain inconspicuous until the planes were
aloft?

CONCLUSION

I have no conclusion. I told you this at the
beginning. I am stuck.

I am looking for Vinnie. Maybe you`re Vinnie. After
you have drawn your own conclusion, and it seems
reasonable, let me know.

But before you do, please run your theory by someone
whose judgment you trust. See if that person thinks your
theory is plausible. See if he or she can pick holes in
it. Don`t make me your first guinea pig. I want to be at
least second. Third would be even better.

We need to get the division of intellectual labor
working here. As the Bible says, "Two are better than one;
because they have a good reward for their labour. For if
they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to him
that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to
help him up" (Ecclesiastes 4:9-10).

If you have no logical explanation, join the club.
Maybe you know a potential Vinnie. Use your FORWARD button
to send him or her a copy of this report. Ask for
feedback.

Notice to all would-be Vinnies: with each
forwarding, e-mail software adds either a carrot
-- this is a carrot: > -- or a vertical line.
This pushes the text to the right. If you have
received this after several forwardings, the text
may be difficult to read. You can get a fresh
copy by sending an e-mail to [e-mail], or
click this link and then click SEND:

[e-mail]

Somewhere out there is a person who can solve this
puzzle. There has to be a solution. I just don`t know
what it is.

In future issues of this newsletter, I will report on
any conclusions that look plausible to me.

If you`re not yet a subscriber, and you want to
read what some of these conclusions are, you can
subscribe for free. Send an e-mail to this
address: [e-mail], or click on the link
and then click the SEND button:

mailto:[e-mail]

You will receive a welcome letter from me within
a few seconds. It will explain what my
newsletter is all about.

______________________

P.S. Send your proposed solution to [e-mail] You
will receive a short autoresponder-generated letter telling
you that I have received it. This way, you will know that
your solution got through to me.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[ChineseArtsCrafts]

golden-bear Du bist nur noch peinlich. Geh mal davon aus, dass die Entführer Bomben im Inneren gezündet haben. Zufrieden Du Kommunist?

[golden-bear]

Hier etwas von den unerfüllten Machtphantasien von Chin.artscraft und seinen Freunden in Amiland:

[HappyVienna]

@golden-bear
Du bist anscheined nicht in der Lage eine kurze Zusammenfassung zu schreiben, das liest kaum wer, auch ich nicht. Weitergelesen wird nur wenn man Infos bekommt, in den ersten Zeilen, die interresieren.

[golden-bear]

Na gut, glückliches Wien!
Wie wäre es damit?


Bewiesen: Taliban hatten in diesem Jahr die Opium-Ernte fast vollständig vernichtet !!!

Liebe Leser,

hörten Sie nicht auch in unseren Medien, dass die Taliban erbarmunglose Opiumdealer seien. Die sog. Nordallianz Afghanistans hingegen vernichte Drogen und entsprechende Anbaufelder. Dies "zeigte" und vor allem sagte uns z.B. der Fernsehsender n-tv immer wieder. Haben Sie´s auch gesehen?
Was n-tv nicht sagte: Die US-Regierung zahlte in der ersten Jahreshälfte 2001 (schon Regierung Bush jr.) den Taliban 43 Mio. USD für deren Bemühungen bei der Drogenbekämpfung!
Wer weiß, dass die US-Drogenbehörde DEA immer wieder an ihre Grenzen stößt, da vor allem die CIA oft ganz andere Interessen verfolgt, erahnt vielleicht wie ungern dieses Geld gezahlt wurde. Sie kennen doch noch die Iran-Contra-Affäre? Sind die Taliban aber erst hinweggefegt, wird´s schon wieder werden mit der Produktion, nicht wahr? ;-) So, wie es im Balkan mit unseren "Freunden" von der UCK ja auch prima diesbezüglich läuft - wie "geschmiert"!
Der folgende Artikel beweist ziemlich eindeutig, dass die Behauptungen der bösen Drogendealer Taliban nicht aufrecht erhalten werden kann! Ganz im Gegenteil! Dies bedeutet einen milliardenschweren Verlust für die Drogenmafia in aller Welt, insbesondere in .... (na, hat´s gefunkt?)

Viele Grüße
g-b


Quelle: http://archive.nandotimes.com/global/story/0,1024,500310481-…

World: Taliban virtually wipes out Afghanistan`s opium crop

By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press
JALALABAD, Afghanistan (February 15, 2001 8:19 p.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com) - U.N. drug control officers said the Taliban religious militia has nearly wiped out opium production in Afghanistan -- once the world`s largest producer -- since banning poppy cultivation last summer.

A 12-member team from the U.N. Drug Control Program spent two weeks searching most of the nation`s largest opium-producing areas and found so few poppies that they do not expect any opium to come out of Afghanistan this year.

"We are not just guessing. We have seen the proof in the fields," said Bernard Frahi, regional director for the U.N. program in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He laid out photographs of vast tracts of land cultivated with wheat alongside pictures of the same fields taken a year earlier -- a sea of blood-red poppies.

A State Department official said Thursday all the information the United States has received so far indicates the poppy crop had decreased, but he did not believe it was eliminated.

Last year, Afghanistan produced nearly 4,000 tons of opium, about 75 percent of the world`s supply, U.N. officials said. Opium -- the milky substance drained from the poppy plant -- is converted into heroin and sold in Europe and North America. The 1999 output was a world record for opium production, the United Nations said -- more than all other countries combined, including the "Golden Triangle," where the borders of Thailand, Laos and Myanmar meet.

Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Taliban`s supreme leader, banned poppy growing before the November planting season and augmented it with a religious edict making it contrary to the tenets of Islam.

The Taliban, which has imposed a strict brand of Islam in the 95 percent of Afghanistan it controls, has set fire to heroin laboratories and jailed farmers until they agreed to destroy their poppy crops.

The U.N. surveyors, who completed their search this week, crisscrossed Helmand, Kandahar, Urzgan and Nangarhar provinces and parts of two others -- areas responsible for 86 percent of the opium produced in Afghanistan last year, Frahi said in an interview Wednesday. They covered 80 percent of the land in those provinces that last year had been awash in poppies.

This year they found poppies growing on barely an acre here and there, Frahi said. The rest -- about 175,000 acres -- was clean.

"We have to look at the situation with careful optimism," said Sandro Tucci of the U.N. Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention in Vienna, Austria.

He said indications are that no poppies were planted this season and that, as a result, there hasn`t been any production of opium -- but that officials would keep checking.

The State Department counternarcotics official said the department would make its own estimate of the poppy crop. Information received so far suggests there will be a decrease, but how much is not yet clear, he said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"We do not think by any stretch of the imagination that poppy cultivation in Afghanistan has been eliminated. But we, like the rest of the world, welcome positive news."

The Drug Enforcement Administration declined to comment.

No U.S. government official can enter Afghanistan because of security concerns stemming from the presence of suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden.

Poppies are harvested in March and April, which is why the survey was done now. Tucci said it would have been impossible for the poppies to have been harvested already.

The areas searched by the U.N. surveyors are the most fertile lands under Taliban control. Other areas, though they are somewhat fertile, have not traditionally been poppy growing areas and farmers are struggling to raise any crops at all because of severe drought. The rest of the land held by the Taliban is mountainous or desert, where poppies could not grow.

Karim Rahimi, the U.N. drug control liaison in Jalalabad, capital of Nangarhar province, said farmers were growing wheat or onions in fields where they once grew poppies.

"It is amazing, really, when you see the fields that last year were filled with poppies and this year there is wheat," he said.

The Taliban enforced the ban by threatening to arrest village elders and mullahs who allowed poppies to be grown. Taliban soldiers patrolled in trucks armed with rocket-propelled grenade launchers. About 1,000 people in Nangarhar who tried to defy the ban were arrested and jailed until they agreed to destroy their crops.

Signs throughout Nangarhar warn against drug production and use, some calling it an "illicit phenomenon." Another reads: "Be drug free, be happy."

Last year, poppies grew on 12,600 acres of land in Nangarhar province. According to the U.N. survey, poppies were planted on only 17 acres there this season and all were destroyed by the Taliban.

"The Taliban have done their work very seriously," Frahi said.

But the ban has badly hurt farmers in one of the world`s poorest countries, shattered by two decades of war and devastated by drought.

Ahmed Rehman, who shares less than three acres in Nangarhar with his three brothers, said the opium he produced last year on part of the land brought him $1,100.

This year, he says, he will be lucky to get $300 for the onions and cattle feed he planted on the entire parcel.

"Life is very bad for me this year," he said. "Last year I was able to buy meat and wheat and now this year there is nothing."

But Rehman said he never considered defying the ban.

"The Taliban were patrolling all the time. Of course I was afraid. I did not want to go to jail and lose my freedom and my dignity," he said, gesturing with dirt-caked hands.

Shams-ul-Haq Sayed, an officer of the Taliban drug control office in Jalalabad, said farmers need international aid.

"This year was the most important for us because growing poppies was part of their culture, and the first years are always the most difficult," he said.

Tucci said discussions are under way on how to help the farmers.

Western diplomats in Pakistan have suggested the Taliban is simply trying to drive up the price of opium they have stockpiled. The State Department official also said Afghanistan could do more by destroying drug stockpiles and heroin labs and arresting producers and traffickers.

Frahi dismissed that as "nonsense" and said it is drug traffickers and shopkeepers who have stockpiles. Two pounds of opium worth $35 last year are now worth as much as $360, he said.

Mullah Amir Mohammed Haqqani, the Taliban`s top drug official in Nangarhar, said the ban would remain regardless of whether the Taliban received aid or international recognition.

"It is our decree that there will be no poppy cultivation. It is banned forever in this country," he said. "Whether we get assistance or not, poppy growing will never be allowed again in our country."

[golden-bear]

Na gut, glückliches Wien!
Wie wäre es damit?


Bewiesen: Taliban hatten in diesem Jahr die Opium-Ernte fast vollständig vernichtet !!!

Liebe Leser,

hörten Sie nicht auch in unseren Medien, dass die Taliban erbarmunglose Opiumdealer seien. Die sog. Nordallianz Afghanistans hingegen vernichte Drogen und entsprechende Anbaufelder. Dies "zeigte" und vor allem sagte uns z.B. der Fernsehsender n-tv immer wieder. Haben Sie´s auch gesehen?
Was n-tv nicht sagte: Die US-Regierung zahlte in der ersten Jahreshälfte 2001 (schon Regierung Bush jr.) den Taliban 43 Mio. USD für deren Bemühungen bei der Drogenbekämpfung!
Wer weiß, dass die US-Drogenbehörde DEA immer wieder an ihre Grenzen stößt, da vor allem die CIA oft ganz andere Interessen verfolgt, erahnt vielleicht wie ungern dieses Geld gezahlt wurde. Sie kennen doch noch die Iran-Contra-Affäre? Sind die Taliban aber erst hinweggefegt, wird´s schon wieder werden mit der Produktion, nicht wahr? ;-) So, wie es im Balkan mit unseren "Freunden" von der UCK ja auch prima diesbezüglich läuft - wie "geschmiert"!
Der folgende Artikel beweist ziemlich eindeutig, dass die Behauptungen der bösen Drogendealer Taliban nicht aufrecht erhalten werden kann! Ganz im Gegenteil! Dies bedeutet einen milliardenschweren Verlust für die Drogenmafia in aller Welt, insbesondere in .... (na, hat´s gefunkt?)

Viele Grüße
g-b


Quelle: http://archive.nandotimes.com/global/story/0,1024,500310481-…

World: Taliban virtually wipes out Afghanistan`s opium crop

By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press
JALALABAD, Afghanistan (February 15, 2001 8:19 p.m. EST http://www.nandotimes.com) - U.N. drug control officers said the Taliban religious militia has nearly wiped out opium production in Afghanistan -- once the world`s largest producer -- since banning poppy cultivation last summer.

A 12-member team from the U.N. Drug Control Program spent two weeks searching most of the nation`s largest opium-producing areas and found so few poppies that they do not expect any opium to come out of Afghanistan this year.

"We are not just guessing. We have seen the proof in the fields," said Bernard Frahi, regional director for the U.N. program in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He laid out photographs of vast tracts of land cultivated with wheat alongside pictures of the same fields taken a year earlier -- a sea of blood-red poppies.

A State Department official said Thursday all the information the United States has received so far indicates the poppy crop had decreased, but he did not believe it was eliminated.

Last year, Afghanistan produced nearly 4,000 tons of opium, about 75 percent of the world`s supply, U.N. officials said. Opium -- the milky substance drained from the poppy plant -- is converted into heroin and sold in Europe and North America. The 1999 output was a world record for opium production, the United Nations said -- more than all other countries combined, including the "Golden Triangle," where the borders of Thailand, Laos and Myanmar meet.

Mullah Mohammed Omar, the Taliban`s supreme leader, banned poppy growing before the November planting season and augmented it with a religious edict making it contrary to the tenets of Islam.

The Taliban, which has imposed a strict brand of Islam in the 95 percent of Afghanistan it controls, has set fire to heroin laboratories and jailed farmers until they agreed to destroy their poppy crops.

The U.N. surveyors, who completed their search this week, crisscrossed Helmand, Kandahar, Urzgan and Nangarhar provinces and parts of two others -- areas responsible for 86 percent of the opium produced in Afghanistan last year, Frahi said in an interview Wednesday. They covered 80 percent of the land in those provinces that last year had been awash in poppies.

This year they found poppies growing on barely an acre here and there, Frahi said. The rest -- about 175,000 acres -- was clean.

"We have to look at the situation with careful optimism," said Sandro Tucci of the U.N. Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention in Vienna, Austria.

He said indications are that no poppies were planted this season and that, as a result, there hasn`t been any production of opium -- but that officials would keep checking.

The State Department counternarcotics official said the department would make its own estimate of the poppy crop. Information received so far suggests there will be a decrease, but how much is not yet clear, he said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

"We do not think by any stretch of the imagination that poppy cultivation in Afghanistan has been eliminated. But we, like the rest of the world, welcome positive news."

The Drug Enforcement Administration declined to comment.

No U.S. government official can enter Afghanistan because of security concerns stemming from the presence of suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden.

Poppies are harvested in March and April, which is why the survey was done now. Tucci said it would have been impossible for the poppies to have been harvested already.

The areas searched by the U.N. surveyors are the most fertile lands under Taliban control. Other areas, though they are somewhat fertile, have not traditionally been poppy growing areas and farmers are struggling to raise any crops at all because of severe drought. The rest of the land held by the Taliban is mountainous or desert, where poppies could not grow.

Karim Rahimi, the U.N. drug control liaison in Jalalabad, capital of Nangarhar province, said farmers were growing wheat or onions in fields where they once grew poppies.

"It is amazing, really, when you see the fields that last year were filled with poppies and this year there is wheat," he said.

The Taliban enforced the ban by threatening to arrest village elders and mullahs who allowed poppies to be grown. Taliban soldiers patrolled in trucks armed with rocket-propelled grenade launchers. About 1,000 people in Nangarhar who tried to defy the ban were arrested and jailed until they agreed to destroy their crops.

Signs throughout Nangarhar warn against drug production and use, some calling it an "illicit phenomenon." Another reads: "Be drug free, be happy."

Last year, poppies grew on 12,600 acres of land in Nangarhar province. According to the U.N. survey, poppies were planted on only 17 acres there this season and all were destroyed by the Taliban.

"The Taliban have done their work very seriously," Frahi said.

But the ban has badly hurt farmers in one of the world`s poorest countries, shattered by two decades of war and devastated by drought.

Ahmed Rehman, who shares less than three acres in Nangarhar with his three brothers, said the opium he produced last year on part of the land brought him $1,100.

This year, he says, he will be lucky to get $300 for the onions and cattle feed he planted on the entire parcel.

"Life is very bad for me this year," he said. "Last year I was able to buy meat and wheat and now this year there is nothing."

But Rehman said he never considered defying the ban.

"The Taliban were patrolling all the time. Of course I was afraid. I did not want to go to jail and lose my freedom and my dignity," he said, gesturing with dirt-caked hands.

Shams-ul-Haq Sayed, an officer of the Taliban drug control office in Jalalabad, said farmers need international aid.

"This year was the most important for us because growing poppies was part of their culture, and the first years are always the most difficult," he said.

Tucci said discussions are under way on how to help the farmers.

Western diplomats in Pakistan have suggested the Taliban is simply trying to drive up the price of opium they have stockpiled. The State Department official also said Afghanistan could do more by destroying drug stockpiles and heroin labs and arresting producers and traffickers.

Frahi dismissed that as "nonsense" and said it is drug traffickers and shopkeepers who have stockpiles. Two pounds of opium worth $35 last year are now worth as much as $360, he said.

Mullah Amir Mohammed Haqqani, the Taliban`s top drug official in Nangarhar, said the ban would remain regardless of whether the Taliban received aid or international recognition.

"It is our decree that there will be no poppy cultivation. It is banned forever in this country," he said. "Whether we get assistance or not, poppy growing will never be allowed again in our country."

[golden-bear]

@happyvienna
In #2 geht es darum, dass sich der Autor des Artikels die Mühe machte, die veröffentlichten Listen mit den Namen der verunglückten Passagiere an Bord der vier am 11.09.01 gecrashten Jets zu kontrollieren.
Und siehe da, es waren bei allen vier Listen weniger Namen darauf gestanden, als an Opfern gemeldet worden war!
Und: Es befand sich KEIN EINZIGER arabischer Name auf diesen Listen!
Wie kann dann aber das FBI binnen kürzester Zeit 19 solche Namen wie das Karnickel aus dem Hut zaubern.
Übrigens: Selbst wenn man die Zahl der angeblichen Hijacker hinzuaddiert, stimmt die Zahl der Passagiere noch immer nicht!

[HappyVienna]

OK jetzt fange ich auch an zu lesen, weil mich beides interessiert. Leider weiss ich noch immer nicht die Glaubwürdigkeit der Quellen einzuschätzen, aber das ist derzeit sowieso fast unmöglich, egal von welcher Seite es kommt.

[ioh]

diese ellenlangen Postings werden wohl die wenigsten lesen!

zu den Passagierlisten: in einer der ersten veröffentlichten standen mehr Namen drin, die dann später rausgenommen wurden, auf Wunsch der Angehörigen!

Man kann auch hinterm Spiegel was misteriöses vermuten.

[Sep]

unter fbi.gov findet man die Liste der Araber, die im Moment als Täter betrachtet werden. Darunter auch die, welche als Piloten in Frage kamen, aus der Sicht des FBI.

Das ist natürlich eine Liste, die keineswegs von diesem board hier approved ist, darüber muß man sich im Klaren sein.

Und es ist eine Liste, die sicherlich noch ein paarmal abgeändert werden wird. Aus sehr offensichtlichen Gründen.


SEP

[peace_boxer]

Hallo, endlich kommt man bei WO einmal rein.
(ich schreib einfach hier, denn wer weiss ob ich woanders reinkomme)

Zu den Passagierlisten, die mehr als Fragen aufwerfen:
Quelle: ajc.com
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/0927hijack…

Bilder der 19 angeblich an Board gewesenen Terroristen:
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/hijackers0…

Das FBI hat also die Namen der 19 NICHT in der Passagierliste der Airlines und vermutet nun, daß die 19 mit ihrem RICHTIGEN Namen eingereist sind und dannach eine FALSCHE Identität angenommen haben. Oder lese ich das falsch?

Bei den Airlines ist immer eine Passagierliste um im Falle eines "gewöhnlichen" Unglücks,-Technischer Defekt mit Absturz- Daten für die Angehörigen zu haben.
Bei allen 4 Flügen sind also Passagierlisten vorhanden.
(Es wird Zeit, daß die Originallisten veröffentlicht werden.)

Wenn die bei CNN veröffentlichen Listen wirklich die vollständigen sind, sind die Täter dort zu suchen.
Da keiner der 19 Namen auf den Listen steht, muss es nun so sein -nach Meinung des FBI-, daß die 19 eben ihre Identität geändert haben.

Hier die Listen von CNN: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.v…

[peace_boxer]

Hallo, endlich kommt man bei WO einmal rein.
(ich schreib einfach hier, denn wer weiss ob ich woanders reinkomme)

Zu den Passagierlisten, die mehr als Fragen aufwerfen:
Quelle: ajc.com
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/0927hijack…

Bilder der 19 angeblich an Board gewesenen Terroristen:
http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/hijackers0…

Das FBI hat also die Namen der 19 NICHT in der Passagierliste der Airlines und vermutet nun, daß die 19 mit ihrem RICHTIGEN Namen eingereist sind und dannach eine FALSCHE Identität angenommen haben. Oder lese ich das falsch?

Bei den Airlines ist immer eine Passagierliste um im Falle eines "gewöhnlichen" Unglücks,-Technischer Defekt mit Absturz- Daten für die Angehörigen zu haben.
Bei allen 4 Flügen sind also Passagierlisten vorhanden.
(Es wird Zeit, daß die Originallisten veröffentlicht werden.)

Wenn die bei CNN veröffentlichen Listen wirklich die vollständigen sind, sind die Täter dort zu suchen.
Da keiner der 19 Namen auf den Listen steht, muss es nun so sein -nach Meinung des FBI-, daß die 19 eben ihre Identität geändert haben.

Hier die Listen von CNN: http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.v…

[peace_boxer]

Da ist also ein Krieg im Gange und der EINZIGE Hinweis auf Bin Laden, der "bewiesen" ist, sind die Autos am Flughafen und die nicht mit umgestiegene Tasche von Atta.

Frage: Atta ist ja von einem anderen Flughafen nach Boston geflogen und dann umgestiegen.
Wo sind von diesem ersten Flug eigentlich die Unterlagen, bzw. die Passagierliste mit Attas Namen, oder ein anderer Name?
Oder der GlEICHE Name.
Wenn also umgestiegen wurde, dann müssten gleiche Namen in der Liste der ersten Maschine vorhanden sein.
Also, wo ist der Passagierlisten-Vergleich?

Atta in Portland auf dem Flug nach Boston:


http://www.spiegel.de/grossbild/0,1518,PB64-aW1naWQ9MTM0NjU2…

[peace_boxer]

Zwischendurch bemerkt:
Spiegel-Online vom 1.10.

12. September: Das FBI macht nach ersten Erkenntnissen vier Terroristengruppen für die Terroranschläge verantwortlich. Ins Ziel der Fahnder geraten der 33-jährige gebürtige Ägypter Mohammed Atta und der 23-jährige Marwan al-Schahi aus den Vereinigten Arabischen Emiraten, die zeitweilig in Hamburg wohnten. Ihre Namen stehen auf den Passagierlisten zwei der entführten Flugzeuge. Am Bostoner Flughafen finden die Ermittler ein von Atta gemietetes Auto.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,160318,00.html

Nachweislich stehen die Namen NICHT auf der Liste.

Wer hier eine Verschwörungstheorie bastelt, ist also noch die Frage.

Interessant ist es auch, daß man am Bostoner Flughafen ein von Atta gemietetes Auto findet und nicht am Portlandflughafen. Dort fand sich auch ein Auto mit "Beweismitteln".
Atta kam von Portland und zwar nicht mit einem Auto, sondern mit einem Flugzeug, dessen Flugnummer (mir jedenfalls) unbekannt ist.

[nasdaq10]

@ peace_boxer

der Spiegel irrt, Attas Mietwagen wurde am Flughafen in Portland gefunden.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/nat_PORT_011005_01.h…

Zu den Passagierlisten noch mal ein Link zu einem Artikel von n-tv vom 13.09.:

http://www.n-tv.de/2474086.html

"....Die Liste enthält nur jene Passagiere, deren nächste Angehörige bereits benachrichtigt wurden und deren Familien mit der Veröffentlichung der Namen einverstanden waren......"

[nasdaq10]

und hier noch ein paar links zum Thema Tower-Einstürze:

http://www.n-tv.de/2473791.html

http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/0,1518,156643,00.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/12/nyregion/12CENT.html

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/wtc.architect.cnna/index.ht…

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13995-2001Oct…

und jetzt der Beste, hier wird auf die Theorie der zusätzlichen Sprengsätze explizit Bezug genommen:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-091201coll…

[peace_boxer]

@nasdaq10
Danke für den Hinweis auf die Familienangehörigen.
Dann muss man davon ausgehen, dass das FBI aus Ermittlungsgründen die Araber aus den zu veröffentlichten Listen gestrichen hat obwohl die da aufgeführt sind.
Auf der CNN Seite mit den Listen ist leider kein Hinweis dazu.
Da ging ich von der Vollständigkeit der Listen aus.

Ich glaub auch nicht, dass die Türme zusätzlich geprengt wurden. Da ist der durch den Chrash vorgeschädigte Stahlkern eben weich geworden, usw.

[golden-bear]

@peace-boxer:
Du schreibst: "Dann muss man davon ausgehen, dass das FBI aus Ermittlungsgründen die Araber aus den zu veröffentlichten Listen gestrichen hat obwohl die da aufgeführt sind."

Nun, das leuchtet mir nicht ein. Die Passagierlisten sind am 13.09. veröffentlicht worden, die Liste der angeblichen Selbstmordattentäter nur einen einzigen Tag später!!! Das Ermittlungs-Argument hätte also gerade mal einen Tag gegolten und ist somit eher schwach (aber nicht unmöglich).
Die Begründung mit dem Einholen der Erlaubnis von Angehörigen kenne ich, aber bezieht sie sich auf auf arabische Angehörige??? Wohl kaum, denn die galten ja allesamt als potentielle Terroristen. Wenn sie denn an Bord waren. Das ist keineswegs definitiv glaubhaft gesichert. Es gab jedenfalls keine mir bekannt gewordenen aktualisierten Namenslisten, obwohl man das ja hätte machen können, nachdem mit nur einem Tag Verzögerung die 19 arabischen Namen auf einer getrennten Liste veröffnetlicht worden waren.
Übrigens hat ja inzwischen das FBI selbst gesagt, 11 dieser 19 Menschen mit den arabischen Namen seien KEINE Selbstmordattentäter (gewesen)! Das glaube ich allerdings schon lange ebenfalls! Eine Gemeinsamkeit mit dem FBI, uiiih, wer hätte das gedacht ;-)))

Zu den Towers: Mir leuchtet nach wie vor nicht ein, dass das Beschädigen einer Ecke des einen Towers unter Verpuffung eines Großteils des Kerosins außerhalb des Towers zu einem schnellen Kollaps führen sollte, während eine zentrale Schädigung des Kernskeletts im anderen Tower mit wesnetlich mehr Kerosin zu einem sehr viel langsameren Kollaps geführt haben soll. Alle Artikel weiter oben gehen NICHT auf die Ohrenzeugenberichte ein, die von mehreren Explosionen gesprochen haben, und dies zu einem Zeitpunkt, zu dem gar kein Kerosin mehr übrig gewesen sein kann, aber unmittelbar vor dem Einsturz. Einer der Architekten gab eine Hitzeresistenz des ja ummantelten WTC-Stahlskeletts an, die deutlich über der Temperatur lag, die durch Kerosinbrände erreichbar ist. Das WTC war quasi für die Ewigkeit gebaut, das man (so die Werbung der Architekten) von AUßEN beinahe nur mit Atombomben hätte zerstören können.
Bei anderen Hochhausbränden, die Tage (!) dauerten, war zwar nichts übrig, aber das Stahlskelett stand da wie eine eins!
Na ja, ich halte beide Versionen (also auch die mit dem Nachhelfen per Sprengstoff an strategisch wichtigen Punkten innerhalb der Tower) für denkbar; es gibt sicherlich klarere Belege für die Vertuschung der wahren Hintergründe der Terrorattentate, insbesondere was Mohammed Atta betrifft...

[big_mac]

@goldenbear

a. daß die terroristen nicht auf den veröffentlichten listen
stehen könnte auch aus gründen der pietät geschehen sein.
sind ja keine opfer.
natürlich haben nur die piloten wissen müssen wohin die
reise geht. was die anderen 11 (?) gewußt haben oder
nicht ist letztlich bedeutungslos.

b. auf den videos vom 2.tower sieht es nicht so aus als ob
das kerosin im freien verpufft wäre (feuerball nach allen
seiten). auch ist der einschlag nicht an der ecke
erfolgt, sondern etwas rechts der mitte - wobei sich
durchaus die theorie aufstellen läßt das ein einschlag
näher zu den ecken ungünstiger für das gebäude ist, da
die beschädigten tragenden teile näher zueinanderliegen
und sich weniger oder keine unbeschädigten dazwischen
befinden die die lasten übernehmen könnten.

abgesehen davon daß die brandschutzummantelungen wohl
kaum auf den brand von vollgetankten flugzeugen ausgelegt
waren wurden diese sicher durch den einschlag und die
explosion des flugzeugs mechanisch beschädigt und damit
lokal mehr oder weniger wirkungslos.
auf den videos sieht man auch daß der einsturz in höhe
des einschlags begonnen hat. explosionsartige geräusche
bei diesen vorgängen sind durchaus plausibel - jedenfalls
viel plausibler als das vorhandensein von vorher an
dieser stelle angebrachten sprengladungen die das ganze
inferno überstanden haben und 1 stunde später
kontrolliert explodieren.